Video Transcript

Eric Harris
Hello everyone, this is Eric Harris with the game plan at DRC. We're really thrilled because today I got to interview Dolores Canales, who's an incredible leader and advocate. She advocates on behalf and with folks who've experienced solitary confinement, and she is just an incredible leader throughout the state and throughout the country. You're going to hear a lot about the work that we've done together on the California Mandela campaign, our work here in the state to try to do away with solitary confinement. You're going to hear a little bit about some of the choices that we've had to make. As a, as a coalition, when it's come to choosing which groups will be able to be out of solitary confinement, due to some of the policy work that that we are trying to do and I really hope you all enjoy it. Thanks.

[Triumphant Instrumental Music]

Voiceover
The Game Plan is a production of Disability Rights California, a space to strategize, organize, and posterize for the future of the disability rights movement. For more information on our work, please visit us at disabilityrightsca.org.

Eric
Well, we are so excited! This is Eric Harris with the Game Plan at Disability Rights California, and we are thrilled to have as a very special guest, Dolores Canales. And, thank you so much for joining us, Dolores.

Dolores Canales:
Yes. Thank you for having me.

Eric
Absolutely. Just so folks know, you know, Disability Rights California has been working with Dolores and a number of other incredible leaders in our community, on the California Mandela Campaign that we'll talk about in a little bit. But I've known Dolores now for for several years, and I've been able to work very closely with her. So, Dolores, the first question that we have for you is, is just for you to talk a little bit about your background and and how you got involved in the fight to end solitary confinement.

Dolores
Hi. Thank you so much again. Thank you for having me. It's always good to chat it up with you, Eric. So, yeah, a little bit about my background. I, right now, I my job is that I work for the Bail Project. I'm director of community outreach, and I'm on the policy team, and, and then also in my spare time, I am a core member of the California Mandela Campaign. And we have been working on several different bills to end the use of solitary confinement as it exists in our prison system and not just our prison system, but our county jails and immigration detention centers. And, a little bit about how I got involved in this work. I myself am formerly incarcerated, and I have a son that's incarcerated and in July of 2011, he was in Pelican Bay solitary confinement at that time, And, that those housed in the solitary confinement unit in Pelican Bay, they had been house there for decades. They rose up and they organized a hunger strike. And, then there was three of them total in the state of California. The third one was, a historical hunger strike, July 8th, 2013, where 30,000 incarcerated people participated in. And so we know that in the United States, it's the longest and largest, hunger strike that existed of incarcerated people. And so that's a little bit about how I got involved. And, and, have carried on in advocacy in different, in different, in different levels.

Eric
That's right, that's right. Well, it's I mean, it's interesting and you and I have talked about it before, you've been very open about the connection, direct connection to solitary confinement with your family. And of course, part of it, you know, there's, there's the devastation and the terrible circumstances that solitary confinement presents and what it involves. But you've also been able to meet such incredible people, Jack, so many others. Can you talk a little bit about about that?

Dolores
Yes. Well, so in this advocacy, when they first started the hunger strikes in California, I didn't know anybody else. Pelican Bay at the time, because my son had just been transferred there from Corcoran. And not only that, I had not been allowed to see my son for 17 years. So when it first started, I was just desperately reaching out to people and trying to connect and find out, you know, more what was going on and everything. And then since then, though, you know, of course, I've connected with just like I think thousands of, you know, family members and, and solitary survivors themselves. And so many of us have remained connected over the years, like an extended family. And, I mean, you know, we go to each other's birthdays and weddings and, you know, baptisms and everything else [laughing] and, you know, and, and, you know, we hear each other out with all the different things that are going on still today in our system. And a lot of families that I've met, throughout the organizing and everything are now facing like deportation issues and just trying to now, pick up that advocacy in some way to provide help and assistance and not with any that I, you know, have not organized on that level. I'm just talking things as simple as trying to find where their loved one is, even at, you know, trying to find out how to get them resources and things like that. And then, so during, you know, the, the hunger strikes and everything, I used to always come on this radio show, KHSU, Sister Soul, and every Sunday, she would play their dedications in their songs, but she always kept them up to date on everything that was going on, too. I mean, she had Scott Budnick on our show Juan Mendez and she literally gave the families an open platform anytime I needed to go on the show to convey, like if there was a hearing or what was going on, she would give us that airtime. And because they, up in Crescent City, they weren't hearing the news of all the local organizing, you know, that was going on in the Bay area or in Southern California. And so she always provided that platform and, you know, a lot of people used to listen to me inside and they would write, you know, that they heard it on the radio and they were very thankful for the updates. And, at this time, a gentleman, Jack Morris also wrote and said, oh, you know, I should sound knowledgeable. I heard somebody on the show and, never really thinking too much of it, but then when Jack Morris paroled, we were introduced by a mutual friend, Danny Morello, and, and then we just started hanging out all the time, and, like, we're best friends and then dating, [giggling] and then we got married, so that was never expected in the, in the, you know, advocacy of it all.

Eric
I love it, I love it. And I wanted to kind of start off with that as some context for folks, because I think that a lot of people, when they hear your name, when they see you do your work, they only think of the kind of tough kind of advocate that you are, the work that you do, and that is a crucial piece of it. But it has led to also some incredible, you know, positive, loving, you know, just an incredible life. And I feel like it's important that our viewers and listeners really have a good, a good understanding of that. You know, when we first collaborated and when we first got together, got together on this issue, one of the interesting things that I thought about and I know some of my colleagues, you know, Pamela Lew, Richard Diaz and others, often in disability spaces, at least years ago, maybe not as much now, but disability spaces didn't always have folks who are incarcerated or formerly incarcerated leading our movement, leading the issues that that we were involved in. And I think sometimes formerly incarcerated folks and those movements didn't always think disability, when it came to, you know, the advocacy that the, the groups were involved in. So why did you feel it was important to have disability, incarceration, kind of all of us on the same page during these fights. Dolores: Yeah. And, you know, that's a really good question, because I think it's important on a larger scale too, not just with solitary confinement. Right. It's not a separate issue. It's a whole connected issue. And so, you know, I was really, really, when I've met people in solitary that, you know, they they can't even read or write, but yet really in solitary, the only thing you have to do to survive is read, you know, simple things like that. Somebody that's blind and never do they have books of Braille in the law library or even the library, you know, I mean, that's something you have to fight for and advocate for where that's something that should already just be a given. There should already be these types of materials. But, you know, often it's a population that's overlooked. And and not only that, we think of, you know, when we when we think of, oh, well, somebody can't read or somebody that can't, you know, they, they can't see or, or something like that, but there's so many different forms. I mean, you know, Vanessa who is with DRC, we often laugh because, we share a lot of the same traits. Like, we can start a conversation exactly from our thoughts and forget that we've left you out on the first half that was going on in our mind. Right? You know, things like that. Something so simple that that people don't stop to, to think of or they just think, oh, she's scatterbrained. Well, no, it's a, it's a, it's a struggle. Right? It's a discipline to say, okay, let me take a breath and backtrack on all my thoughts and then speak. You know, it's things like this that I'm explaining. But as I was mentioning often in you know, immigration detention centers, county jails, the prison system, these issues are overlooked or even sometimes disciplined. They're thinking you're just not wanting to cooperate if you don't fully comprehend. So there's a lot of different issues like that. And that's why it's very important.

Eric
Yeah. No, that's a really good point and really helpful context because, you know, being incarcerated for any period of time, being in solitary confinement for any period of time could lead to a disability. It could lead to PTSD that I know we've talked about before. It can lead to having, chronic pain. It can lead to a lot of different disabilities that in some cases, people don't always feel comfortable talking about, because it's sometimes the stigma against disability has been to the point where you don't really want to talk about having those types of disabilities, especially in the communities that a lot of the folks that we've worked with are a part of the community, the backgrounds that they come from. A lot of the families don't talk about disability. It's, hey, you got to just power through it. You got to just push your way through it. So I can only imagine if you're incarcerated asking for additional support. Asking for additional accommodations has to be a challenge for a lot of people.

Dolores
Right? Absolutely.

Eric
So, you know, we all know that, solitary confinement, you know, there's the perception that folks have of it. Can you talk just a little bit about what that experience is even like, you know, solitary confinement. Are you in one room for an extended period of time by yourself? Are you in a room with other people? Are you able to go outside like anything that you want to say? Just about what that experience, is like? And you know why it's so challenging for family members who are on the outside because they're worried.

Dolores
Well, I can only speak to what I've seen or experienced firsthand. And, and I think as many facilities that use this type of housing, it could be anything. But from what I have seen personally, I have seen the cells of Pelican Bay. You know, they are absolutely windowless. There's not even a cell across from them. So they can look out at another cell. They face a, you know, a white brick wall. The door is metal. So they can, see in, but they can't see out. They have to stand up to the door, you know, in close when eye, So I seen these types of cells. I've also seen the solitary confinement cells, you know, in, some of the women's prisons and where they're, they might have bars in CIW, Chowchilla, they have the metal door, you know, with just a sliver of a window that's like, blurred out. It's not a clear window that you could see through, you know, so that there's a lot of different, type of cell housing. Some allow double bunk in solitary and some don't. Oftentimes, though, because the space is so small, it's not really like you want, you know, somebody in there just everybody's different. You can't say one way for everybody. And you know, because everybody's different. It's what they're comfortable with. But even those that want another cellmate oftentimes won't get it, you know. So it's not necessarily like oh, it's, you know, do you prefer it's nothing like that. I don't want to try to make it sound like a preference, you know. So and then another thing with the yard time, for instance, if it's like in the blazing heat summer and you're in Corcoran's SHU or are even ad seg. Even administrative segregation, single cell housing, and they offer you yard time. You're going to get thrown outside and put like in a dog cage in the, you know, blazing sun in the heat. And then sometimes, even if you say, hey, I need to go in now, if they're busy, they're just going to say, deal with it. And you could get stuck out there like that. Right. In Pelican Bay. The yard time is just another cell, you know, with 20 foot brick walls and not even a restroom inside the cell. In CIW, the yard time was just a cement slab with a fence around it. So it's not like when you think of yard time, you know, every facility is different, of course. But sometimes, you know, you just don't even want to bother. Or if it's pouring rain and you're, you know, go outside like that. And then another thing, a lot of times people will refuse because even to go out to yard, you have to strip down fully naked and go through a strip search. And before they'll even cuff you up to take you outside. Anytime you step out of your cell while you're in administrative, administrative, segregation, housing or the solitary confinement unit, which they no longer call SHU. The governor now has, said we've eliminated solitary confinement, so we call it RHU, which is restrictive housing unit. But the RHU is exactly the SHU. So. It's like right in, in in paperwork. It's changed. As far as the cells and everything that goes on, it's still the same.

Eric
Wow, wow. Well, you know, one thing that in our work together in the Mandela Campaign, the group made very clear, was they didn't want anybody to be left behind. We advocated to make sure that in jails, prisons and immigration detention facilities, that there would be significant, changes in how solitary confinement would be in California. We wanted to make sure that disabled people wouldn't be able to be in solitary confinement. Pregnant folks wouldn't be able to be in solitary confinement. Young folks and older folks wouldn't be able to be in solitary confinement. So we were and and it was interesting because and I'd love to hear your thoughts on it. We were, you know, at different times, we thought about, hey, well, what if we changed? You know, maybe we took away one group that, you know, that we had in the bill at one point or we moved some things around. But the advocates in the, in the California Mandela campaign, including yourself, felt strongly that no this, We want to make sure that the folks who are most vulnerable, the folks who are most likely to be harmed in any of these settings, were protected. Can you just talk about, like, why that was so important to the California Mandela Campaign?

Dolores
Well, originally the bill for the Immigration Defense Advocates, I know they got involved because in immigration detention center, there was the suicide of a 74-year-old, Korean gentleman. Mr. Ahn, A-H-N I believe that's, saying his name. Right. And, you know, this is somebody that came into this country and was here all of his life and had never broken any of, you know, the US laws, as far as you know, he was what one would consider a law-abiding citizen, a family man and everything, and then picked up by immigration and held in solitary confinement. And it, you know, it. He committed suicide because of the devastation and because of the, you know, the conditions of this type of housing, the despair and the desolation and the just the isolation, the darkness overtook him. And, you know, that hit the community hard because, you know, when you look at him and you think of your own grandparent or your own great grandparent, and you think, how would I feel if somebody did this to my grandfather or my grandmother? You know, my grandparents, which now we're seeing on a regular basis, unfortunately. But that at that time that was, you know, he, he was what really pushed like IDA, Immigration Defense Advocates, CCIJ, different groups, to really get involved and and to keep the issue of immigration and detention centers as part of the Mandela Campaign, which we were all in agreement with that. I've always said even long before this, I'm also on the steering committee of Unlock the Box. It's a national campaign, during the years of solitary confinement on a national level. And I used to. Oh, I felt like I was, you know, just constantly repeating myself because I always used to say, you know, solitary confinement does not just exist in our prison system. You know, it's in our county jails. It's in in our all the carceral systems. Anywhere we can detain a person, they find a way to just warehouse people and eliminate humanity and eliminate the the human aspect of it. And so, so yeah. So I it's always been very important. And I think one thing that's so great about the Mandela Campaign is that everyone is in agreement, you know, just kind of standing by each other and the communities.

Eric
That's right, that's right. And, you know, it's interesting. I mean, you know, you've done this work at the state level, you've done this work at the national level. Where would you say you've seen, um, um progress? Any any kind of positive, the positivity that you can pull from any of the work, especially in recent years. Has there been anything that you can point to and say, hey, at least this is moving us in the right direction?

Dolores
Well, in other states, I have seen, I have seen, you know, North Dakota has made, numerous changes. I, I visited Colorado firsthand. So when they say, oh, it can't work, you know, I visited Colorado and, Rick Ramesh was, the secretary of corrections at the time, and, and he let you know, he stood back, he, him and his team stood back and he said, go ahead, you know, talk to anyone you want. And I was walking in the dayroom, visiting the different cells and, you know, just talking to people that were confined there and just hearing what it was like. And so, so, you know, so I have seen changes, taking place and, and I know that in California, I've seen, like in Chowchilla, a women's prison, for instance, I really want to give a shout out to, you know, some of the staff there, like Lieutenant Williams and, and the warden, where they continue to try to have as. Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to say, you know, there's been a lot of negative things that have been occurring, but there also is positive. They see that there's negatives. So they try to, do their best to have, you know, events for the women and to let the women take the lead and organize from inside and have outside visitors, from all organizations go in. And I was just there, recently for the breast cancer walkathon. And, you know, seeing these different places at one time, it was, like, impossible to get in, if you were formerly incarcerated. And now they're realizing that it's a very important community that needs to stay in touch and need to be allowed that. So, you know, there's also that I know that they did, also try some things with the California model based off of Norway. And I've also visited Norway and the way that I look at that, I think in everything about Norway is they want to prepare you to come home. They don't want to keep you. And there they want to prepare you to enter back into the community that you were a part of. And they continue to say, you know, these are our neighbors, but it's like you can't just take one piece of the puzzle and put it over here and think that it's going to work. You know, in Norway, the way that they treat family members is phenomenal. They just they don't discourage you from visiting, but they actually encourage the visiting. They know the way that they treat a human beings and the way that they look at things like, you know, why wouldn't a husband want to hug their wife. Here in California, if you give your wife a hug, you're going to lose your visits for six months. And it's, you know, just the the different ideology and the approach. And, well, I do think it's, a fantastic model always to incorporate humanity and, and, you know, write treatment while conditions of confinement exist, you have to have the whole big picture to include the, the success.

Eric
That's right. You know, it's interesting because, I mean, doing this work, criminal legal system work, working with impacted folks. You recognize how often and of course, the data shows this already, but you recognize how many folks who are incarcerated are going to be in the community at some point, are going to come out and be back in the community. And it is in everyone's best interest to make sure that they feel comfortable, that they feel welcome, that there are opportunities for them to be employed to have housing. I mean, we could spend a whole podcast talking about, like making sure that people who are incarcerated, people who have been impacted by the criminal legal system, that they have opportunities for when they come home, you know, you have now been doing, you know, policy work for some time. What is something that you would say to, and I know you talked about some of the other states and some of the other places that have been doing better. What would you want to say if you had a one on one with the governor of California? If you had a one on one with the legislator in California who could make a real difference in this fight, what would you want to tell them about this work and about what they could do when it comes to solitary confinement?

Dolores
Well, I don't think absolute deprivation is the solution. You know, depriving people of human contact, depriving people of, programing and rehabilitation. I think the better a person feels about themselves, you know, being productive and making themselves feel their worth and their value. Well, I, I'm not trying to say at all, because I would never, I'm still going to come from a perspective of for those that are still inside right now, and if there is somebody that absolutely cannot be housed with someone, you know, absolutely that has to be taken into consideration. But they should be allowed out of cell time. They should be allowed programing, they should be allowed dayroom with other people that, you know, if that's possible with the, you know, different conditions. So there's so many different ways they could do things. I think even just, the way the separation from family and community and everything, you know, in solitary confinement, I've never seen a solitary confinement where you get contact visits, in any facility that I know of, I'm not saying it does not absolutely exist in California. I'm speaking of from what I know of, and I think, you know, that's one thing that they started in North Dakota incorporating like a family movie night or even with Rick Raemisch, they had like different steps of, okay, you know, after a while you'll get these you can have this contact visit with your family and seeing how much that means to people, you know, because I know we say it's not California Department of Corrections and Punishment. We say it's California Department of Corrections and Rehabilitation.

Eric
That's right.

Dolores
And, you know, connectivity, family reunification, you know, all of that in our in our jails and our prisons, even the county jails, you know, when you're first arrested and not even yet convicted of any criminal offenses, you are immediately cut off from everything, you know. And, I think that's a really important thing, you know, that that we have to look at is how we keep people confined and how we treat them while they are confined.

Eric
Yeah. That's right. Well, we're going to get to the last couple of questions here. I really do appreciate the time. It's always wonderful to reconnect with you. You do so much advocacy, and have been lifted up as a national leader on this issue for years. That's a lot of pressure and, and giving of yourself, giving of yourself, your family. It just is a lot. How do you find joy outside of the either, you know, outside of the work? Just what do you find joy in right now?

Dolores
Well, and, you know, being that I've met so many amazing people, for instance, Pamela Wynn with Restore Her, we just had, Women's Retreat, and we were just really pampered and cared for and, you know, still worked on policy at the very close to our policy. Right. But realizing how important it is to take care of ourselves and, and those around us that we advocate for, you know, I, I always say, everybody wants the lived experience perspective. But are we investing in that lived experience perspective? Are we offering you know, are we offering them honorarium or are we offering them, you know what? We have somebody available, a healer available if you need to talk to somebody afterwards. Sometimes opening up these old wounds, you know, we don't realize how it's affecting us or even calling and checking in and saying, hey, you know, thank you for coming and speaking. How are you doing? You know, how are things, doing with you, simple things like that, that, that I think is very important. And, you know, we were just talking because we recently, the California Mandela Campaign, recently lost, Mia Wilkerson, she did commit suicide, and she was on the steps in Sacramento at the Capitol talking about where her all her issue started and that was being put into solitary confinement while pregnant, then having her son taken. And she still stayed in solitary postpartum. And she had never been the same since mentally. And the deep depression it put her in. And then just in June, she took her life, and she talked about these struggles openly and and I mean, we did, you know, so many times refer her to St. Johns or refer her, you know, extend different resources, but sometimes it's just too much for people to carry no matter what you do. But that's why it's so important, to make sure that we really also have healing in this work and time to process and and just care for one another, if nothing else. You know, checking in with one another.

Eric
That's right, that's right. Right now, is there, anything that you are reading or watching or listening to that you would encourage our viewers or listeners to, to check out? Like, is there a TV show or movie that you're just like, right now is probably a good time to to check check one of these out?

Dolores
God, you threw me I was not even, prepared for this. I think, I can't I just can't think I made a block. I know. Yeah. [Eric and Dolores laughing]

Eric
Any any, like, old school music that you just like.

Dolores
Music? Yeah. Music. We we listen to music. A lot. We, we, turn on the music in the morning when we get up. I listen to, you know, we listen to some jazz, and we just start our day with some oldies. Sometimes it just all depends, you know how

Eric
Nice.

Dolores
Yeah.

Eric
Good stuff. So last question is just the show is called the Game Plan. We try to not just talk about an issue, but we try to come up with like what would be a solution to like this moving forward. So what is a game plan that you have on this issue for the next year? Like if you could see California improve, California get better, what would you want to make sure starts happening if it hasn't happened already? When it comes to solitary confinement moving forward.

Dolores
Oh, wow. Well, I think a great game plan would be if even we could get, an author for, like, a data collection bill. I mean, right now we have no idea who's in solitary. How long are they going in to solitary, and why are they there? Why are they being housed in solitary? You know, something like that, I think would be great if we could start out with a data collection bill and, you know, and bring about some significant changes with that data, because then, you know, right now in California, I think we also say solitary confinement doesn't exist. And and, you know, you know, that it does.

Eric
That's right. That's right. Well, thank you so much, Dolores. It's been wonderful to reconnect. And, I think you gave so much just knowledge and information to our listeners and to our viewers. And I look forward to staying connected and continuing to work with you moving forward.

Dolores
Oh, wait just a minute. Wait, wait. I'm going to grab it.

[Dolores runs out of frame]

[Eric smiling and laughing]

[Dolores returns holding a paperback book]

So I really am reading this book. I just I couldn't think because we don't watch a lot of TV, once in a while. We do movies, but yeah, listen, it's written by, Chris Blackwell, who is incarcerated. He's a lifer and incarcerated. And Dr. Terry Kupers, who is from California that has done so much work on this issue. And also, a professor from New York, Debra, so that this is a really good but for reading because it it's not where they just wrote the book, but it's a collection of stories and experiences of those that have been housed in this type of housing.

Eric
Wow.

Dolores
So it's, so it's called "Ending Isolation." Yeah.

Eric
Ending Isolation. And who's the author again?

Dolores
Well, the author is, it's called Ending Isolation: The Case Against Solitary Confinement. And it's written with, Kwaneta Harris, Chris Blackwell, and Terry Kupers.

Eric
Okay, perfect.

Dolores
Combination of authors working together. And Kwaneta and Chris are incarcerated.

Eric
Wow. Wow

Dolores
Well, we worked with several professors out here. Which one of them is our Dr. Kupers, who so many of us know and love because he's a true champion in this work.

Eric
Fantastic. Well, thank you so much, Dolores. We will be sure to uplift that book and tell our listeners and viewers to to check it out because, we want to support. But thank you again so much for joining The Game Plan. And, hope you have a good rest of your day.

Dolores
You too. And thank you for having me. Thank you so much.

Voiceover
This has been the Game Plan a production of Disability Rights. California, please like subscribe, comment on the platform of your choice. See you next time.