Video Transcript

Eric Harris
Hey, everyone, this is Eric Harris, your host of The Game Plan

with Disability Rights California. We had an amazing conversation,

and with two incredible leaders in our community, Conrad Crump,

who is on the public policy team at Disability Rights California, and Tremmel Watson, who is also on the public policy team as a volunteer, with, just some amazing, um uh, stories, some amazing, background of their advocacy. And I hope you guys really enjoy it.

We did use CART captioning which, for those who might not know,

is Communication Access Realtime Translation services. Tremmel is hard of hearing and needed to use CART. And so, we made sure that we use that service for this recording, but really hope you all enjoy it. We talked a lot about Sacramento, being Black and disabled, the communities that we're from and how that led to our advocacy journeys, and what we hope to see moving forward with all of our communities coming together. So I really hope you all enjoy it.

Voiceover
The Game Plan is a production of Disability Rights California, a space to strategize, organize, and posterize for the future of the disability rights movement. For more information on our work, please visit us at disabilityrightsca.org

Eric Harris
We're going to get started with both of you guys. Telling us a little bit about, describing, describing to us how you all were as young people. Just your backgrounds, your upbringing and just what you were like as young people. And, Conrad, we can get started with you. And then I'll go to Tremmel.

Conrad Crump
Okay, cool. Well, man, for me, growing up in Sacramento, was amazing. I absolutely loved it. You know, I grew up with a very loving family. My mom, stepdad, didn't really have an opportunity to know my biological father growing up, but you know, really just had a wonderful upbringing. My parents were involved in the church, so a lot of my community was a church community. You know, and a lot of my family was from the Oak Park neighborhood. All of my family was from the Oak Park neighborhood. My mom is from Jamaica. So she's, you know, an immigrant as well to the country. But, my upbringing was amazing. You know, I had a lot of friends. A lot of, you know, just people around me that loved on me and and showed me. Showed me love. Yeah.

Eric Harris
Fantastic. And we're going to talk a little bit more about Oak Park and the significance of, of that part of Sacramento a little bit later, for sure. But Tremmel, over to you.

Tremmel Watson
Okay. So hi, this is Tremmel speaking, and my upbringing was pretty cool

growing up in Sacramento. A lot of my weekends, I spent that Cal Skate park, you know, at Cal Skates with my friends. We would go skating

and things of that nature. As far as my upbringing, I was raised by my grandparents. Not so much my father and my mother. They came a little bit later on in my life. They were a systemly-impacted. But I had a great upbringing.

But I then wasn't able to get into sports because I grew up with a heart condition. I had a heart murmur, so I had to have open heart surgery. So that made it where I was not able to play a lot of sports. But what I did do what it I spend a lot of my time at the library reading books, and I was heavily into computers as far as like I was into gaming. And I used to go to an internet café at 5500 Sky Parkway, and I would play video games, and I would learn how to code and make different websites, things of that nature.

Eric Harris
Wow. Well, that's fascinating. And I've had the pleasure, of course, of knowing both of you, for for a while, for years, even before, both of you coming to Disability Rights California. And it's been wonderful, to stay connected with you and now work with both of you as, as colleagues. And I want to kind of talk a little bit more about the communities that you guys are from and how those communities impacted you as individuals. And ultimately developed you both as, Black men, as Black disabled men,

and as advocates. So, Tremmel we can start with you this time, you know what, you know, in your community, kind of led to you becoming who you are today? In terms of being an advocate and especially one that cares so deeply about people who are system-impacted.

Tremmel
I would say that what led to me becoming an advocate it would start with, because I was incarcerated. So when I was incarcerated, I struggled with reaching reasonable accommodations in terms of like a sign language interpreters and receiving captions. So I would have to reach out to the Prison Law Office, which was the designated to help people that the class action members that are disabled in California prisons. And they helped me with my advocacy. In terms of helping people with my specific disability, which is I am late deaf and my social identity is hard of hearing. I came about that just working with the Prison Law Office, and then I got involved with different advocacy groups, and I'm involved with so many different advocacy groups for D/deaf and hard-of-hearing. And I really enjoy helping people because of the things that I went through. As far as being D/deaf and late deaf, I, I struggle with basically having accommodations, people that were here and underestimating me and, so that was how I got involved in advocacy and why I'm so passionate about advocacy.

Eric Harris
Conrad.

Conrad
Yeah. For me, man, you know, it it happened in a weird way. You know, I would say the first, my first activation of being an advocate was during Oscar Grant. When Oscar Grant was killed. I was living in the Bay Area at the time. I was a student at Berkeley, and, you know, everybody, like a lot of the Black students and other students were making posters and signs and, you know, I was on the same BART path that Oscar Grant would take to go home because I was living in Hayward at the time. And so, you know, I would stay after and I would, like, participate in making the signs and they would have protests and, you know, later on, you know, after the whole Oscar Grant thing happened, there were other things happening as well, like student fees were increasing and stuff like that.

You know, I remember protesting at UC Berkeley where the Alameda, police was dispatched and the Berkeley PD, and they were in full riot gear, and they were hitting people with batons and, me and my roommate, you know, we were actually, you know, if you look on YouTube, I think it's like

"UC Berkeley protests 2009" you'll see me on the front lines getting hit with a baton. And then that started helping me to understand to use my voice, you know, to wherever I could. You know, that was something that I realized using my voice is something that is one of the most powerful things.

Eric Harris
Perfect, man. And, you know, when you talk about the communities that both of you guys are from, you know, I think the you can talk about blue collar communities, communities that really have a lot of pride, communities that also, in a lot of ways are for lack of a better term, somewhat dismissed by the majority, if you will. What, you know, sense of pride do both of you guys have in those communities? Valley High, Oak Park. And, you know, kind of what do they mean to you guys specifically? And, Tremmel, you can you can start this one off if you like.

Tremmel
So, I mean, everybody that grew up in my neighborhood, they were really proud to be from my neighborhood. I think growing up early on, people weren't as proud to say that they were from Sacramento. A lot of people wanted to say that they were from the Bay Area.

Eric Harris
Right, right.

Tremmel
Or false-claim the Bay Area. But I think now a days more so that a lot of people are proud to be from Sacramento, like, you know. That neighborhoods that me and him grew up when we were are traditionally, I would say they oppose each other.

Conrad
Yeah.

Tremmel
So but me and him, me, when we initially first met, we talked about that and we talked about that. And when we talked about that, we thought that it was amazing that we are able to show by example that we are. He was in a call, I walk into his office, right. And he had a group of gangsters on his Zoom meeting.

Eric Harris
Yeah.

Tremmel
And he was telling them basically like, "don't let where you from define where you're going." And then he had asked me, he was like, "hey man, I know you're from Sacramento. Where are you from, from Sacramento?" And I'm like, I'm from the South area. He's like, see this is a great example.

[Conrad, Tremmel, and Eric laugh]

Tremmel
And you want to comment on that.

Conrad
Yeah I mean it was a unique. Well, first of all, I will say for those who don't know this conversation, us being in this room, this is my brother right here, man.

[Conrad and Tremmel embrace with a handshake]

Conrad
Like this right here. This is unprecedented. Historically, you would never see two men unless they were incarcerated sitting amongst one, you know, with each other and having a, a wonderful conversation because, you know, and I can't speak to the incarceration piece, but I do know and have heard that, for a lot of folks, particularly Black folks, when you're incarcerated you stick with the Black folks. You know, it is broken off by race. And so when you're there, you gotta stick with your own. So you might be from the other side of the tracks. But while we're in here, we together. You know. But aside from that, on the outside world,

with all of us as civilians and some of us, you know, living in underground economy and doing different things that we and we know and people that have engaged with that lifestyle. This right here would not, would not be possible without any animosity.

So I preface that by saying, when we first met, I asked him, hey, you know, where are you from? And I was on a Zoom meeting talking with some youngsters. And, he was like, he told me where he was from. And I was like, okay, you know? And I said, hey, man, close the door. So he came in and he closed the door. He said, "where are you from?" And I was like, bro, I'm from Oak Park. And he was like, for like, two seconds We both kind of looked at each other, and then he was like, oh man. Like it was love. Like we're we're not who we used to be. And we're not of that mindset. We've grown, we've developed.

But to answer your question about, the community, I fell in love with my community because of its rich history with the Black community. Oak Park, Most people, you know, they they've they've given it a bad, you know, a bad rap, you know, and it has a reputation. People know it for being gang-impacted drug impacted, crime, all these different things. But before all of that, Oak Park was a strong, vibrant, Black community of a lot of Black families who were working, doing amazing things for the city broadly,

but in their own community. I fell in love with the aspect that many people don't know this, but the Sacramento the the Black Panthers had a Sacramento clubhouse in Oak Park. There was a chapter there, you know, Huey Newton and and other Black Panthers would be in Oak Park

regularly.

I remember my uncles telling me about how my grandmother

used to go to McClatchy Park. We call it the big park. We would go to the big, they would go to the big park. And the Black Panthers would be down there. The post office that's on 35th Avenue used to be their clubhouse. And then they had other spots throughout the throughout Oak Park. But my uncles would tell me that my grandmother used to come and grab them by their collar and be like, get home, you know, because she feared for their lives. You know, at the time, police tension and police violence, which is not new to the Black community, was happening and was rampant in Oak Park. And the Black Panthers, you know looked at ways to to fight against that, you know. So, I'm proud to to say that, you know. Yeah. My family's from Oak Park. I'm from Oak Park. Because Oak Park is a family of proud Black families that have been there. My family has been there since the 50s.

Eric Harris
Can you guys talk a little bit about what your disability story, has been like, and how it has led you to doing what you do? Disability advocacy.

Tremmel
So if I would talk about my journey as being, late deaf, it started My hearing loss started when I was four years old. So when I was four years old, I drowned in a swimming pool. I had an electric push-start motorcycle. I drove this into the swimming pool, and I was knocked unconscious. And my cousin, he actually found me and he tried CPR to resurrect me. I was helicopter lifted. I was hospitalized for two months, and, the water, it blew my eardrums. And it wasn't something that was immediate. My hearing loss was gradual. So when I was about 13 years old, my mother would go to the grocery store, and as she was coming back from the grocery store, she would be knocking on the front door for me to let her in. And I'm in my room playing video games, not hearing it. And she would be upset, like, why are you not letting me in. But I couldn't hear her. So that was one way that I was learning that I was, you know, having hearing problems.

Another way that was learning that I was having hearing problems was that I would be talking to my friends on the phone, and there would be more of a strain for me to hear in one ear, and I would have to switch to the other ear. So as I went through my hearing loss journey, I actually it was hard. It was really difficult because a lot of times I wouldn't even tell people that I had hearing loss. I would basically nod away and just nod. And I'm not knowing what the person is saying. So you can imagine how that could cause problems. It would be difficult. It took me time to actually progressing to to be assertive and to be able to tell someone when that, hey, I can't hear you can you write that down? Oh, so that was not something I did initially.

Eric Harris
Gotchu. Conrad?

Conrad
Yeah. For me, you know I, I learned about my disability disability later on in life. As disabilities. You know I identify as having multiple, but you know, particularly you know, I didn't realize it until, you know, I was a grown adult man. You know, I'm a father too. So, you know, I realize a lot of the different things in my life that I've experienced. And now having being diagnosed with neurodivergent, you know, a disability, it it really was kind of like a missing puzzle piece. So where I was like, oh, so that's why, you know, these things may have happened. And trying to learn different ways

to navigate, you know, whether it's executive dysfunction or time blindness or, my sporadic, you know, impulses or inability to sit still. I remember being in school where my teachers would say, you know, "you're a very bright kid." They even, wanted to put me in the GATE program. GATE: Gifted and Talented Education. But I couldn't sit still. I was always doing something. And, you know, I being that I grew up in church, especially in the Black church, you know, it's encouraged for you to get up and, you know, stand up or go move over here and talk to this brother or sister. It it was something that was it wasn't frowned upon, but in a school setting it was like, no, you have to sit still. If you want to go to the bathroom, you have to raise your hand, you know, all these different things. So I just thought, okay, it's just a cultural difference, but not really understanding that, you know, as time would go on.

You know, I spent years in community college. I started at the lowest math, the lowest reading, you know, had to work my way up. I say I took the scenic route to education, but I went from community college and and, you know, transferred into the UC and did my thing. But, even through relationships and, through different jobs, I've found challenges with, trying to figure out how to navigate, just different things. And it would be looked at as, oh, you're low performing, or you're not committed to, you know, certain tasks or whatever the case may be, when in actuality, I had a disability, a disorder, you know, so that was something that I realized was like, okay. And then finding ways to manage that through medication as well as through other practices that I use, from using multiple calendars, to using timers, to a number of different things that I use that can help me. You know, to actually navigate that. And then additionally, having diabetes is another challenge that, you know, you know, it's like you can't control the way in which your body feels based off of your blood sugar level. You know, you might have high blood sugar level, and, you know, I might like my hands might tingle or my feet tingle and, you know, or go numb even, or low blood sugar level to where I'm just, like, completely lethargic.

And I feel like I'm about to pass out, and it's like a fine balance that you got to kind of maintain. So trying to find ways to do that in addition to all of the other things, you know, has been something that I've learned to live with in addition to growing up, how I grew up and seeing trauma, seeing violence, PTSD from witnessing people getting shot. You know, I remember driving right here in Sacramento on J Street, and I was driving in my Nova and a bullet came through the car and ricocheted off my dashboard and hit my cousin in the knee. I mean, just like so many different experiences that I've had to where it's like, you know, these are real things, you know, traumatic events, you know, dealing with depression from fatherlessness. And like all these other different elements layered on top of each other, you know, has definitely brought, a level of challenge to me, but also has allowed me to know that I'm triumphant in spite of all of that, I've still been able to be successful and show up for my community as well as my family.

Eric Harris
That's right. What would you say to them to make sure that they're being thoughtful about including disabled folks in their process?

Tremmel
I would say that I believe that all of these different issues they intersect with each other and because they intersect with each other, that is why we need to work together with each other. When we work together with each other, we're able to amplify the different issues on a whole nother scale. Versus when we are single minded and we are just thinking about the issues that we are facing versus the things that we all are facing. I think when you made that comment, about, you know, traditional white leadership with this organization, one of my greatest role models, one of my greatest role models was Brad Lomax. And Brad Lomax was a part of the 504 shutdown that happened in San Francisco. In the 504 shut down, the significance of of that is, is that when they had the Rehabilitation Act, the 504 made it where, you know, you had legal protection.

Conrad
Yeah.

Tremmel
And, you know, the Black Panthers,

Conrad
Right.

Tremmel
They actually sustained that line. They came and they fed the protesters.

Conrad
Yeah.

Tremmel
You know. They was able to give them their medicine and they helped that. So, Brad Lomax, when I was reading his documentary, I was actually watching a documentary on PBS. And one of the things that I learned that, you know, when he moved to Oakland and he experienced, trying to be a part disability circles that he learned that they were a lot white-centered. So he started the Independence of Living in Oakland, California, with Black leadership. Do you know anything about that story? A little bit Eric?

[Conrad chuckles]

Eric Harris
I do. I do. No, it's, it's really it's really crucial. And I think Brad Lomax, I think Fannie Lou Hamer. I think that there are some incredible black disabled leaders in our history that we need to make sure we continue to lift up. And, and I think sometimes the sometimes people will forget and they'll only talk about the, you know, pictures of, you know, George H.W. Bush signing the ADA with mostly white folks on, you know, on the stage. Or other kind of circumstances where we celebrate white disabled leaders. But I think if the, for example, the three of us, continue to be vocal and continue to spread the, the impact and, great works of folks, who had an impact, who were black and disabled, who, who are at the intersection. I think that the better off we'll all be, so I appreciate you lifting up…

Conrad
Yeah.

Eric Harris
Brad Lomax in that way. But.

Conrad
Yeah, I was just going to say I think it was Jackie "Moms" Mabley that said, "If you always do what you've always done, you'll always get what you've always got." And basically, that is to say, if we keep doing this work in silos, we're always going to keep getting outcomes that the system

is going to continue to produce.

Eric Harris
That's right.

Conrad
If we are innovative enough and open minded enough to understand that there's someone else on the other side that may look like you, but may have a different, challenge or might have a different lived reality. But, the fact that we can work together and intersect our work there, there will be a lot of people in that intersection or those intersections that will also stand up and say, "Hey, me too. I, too am affected by both of these different things or multiple things, and I'm here in solidarity." And I feel like those are the ways in which we can really implement the change. And I feel like the change starts on the inside with the individual first, you change in your mind, opening your mind, your heart and changing your behaviors. And then by that it's like a match. You know, one match lit next to the next match, lights the next match and the next match and the next match, before you know, you have a fire of a community doing wonderful things.

So it starts with the individual and then it spreads out in the community, and then it just keeps growing and growing and getting greater.

Eric Harris
That's right.

Conrad
Yeah.

Eric Harris
That's right.

Tremmel
I would add that, you know, one thing I learned was an analogy about a candle, right? When I take my candle and I light your candle, my candle don't lose no light.

Conrad
Exactly!

[Conrad and Tremmel laugh]

Eric Harris
That's real. That's real. So first, of course, Assata Shakur passed away, a couple weeks ago. Was not only for black liberation, but, was a disability

advocate, was a leader, talked about her own lived experience, you know, physical disabilities, traumatic experiences, and the rest. And then and then D'Angelo, the R&B artist, superstar artist, passed away of cancer actually earlier today. Unfortunately. Both of these individuals, because of their work, just, you know, Shakur with her advocacy, and D'Angelo with his art and music. If you guys could just say anything that comes to mind about, either of them, that'd be fantastic.

Tremmel
The first thing that comes to my mind when we talk about Assata Shakur is revolutionary. She knows revolutionary. She was amazing. And she was into Black liberation. She received asylum from Cuba. And one thing I learned I read, I read a lot of her writings, I watched a lot of her videos, and, she inspired me a lot. Because her words were very expressive,

very articulate, very, very powerful. She talked about the oppression

from the system. And it really made me look at the system from a different lens. And she was very thought-provoking. I believe that she was probably

one of the greatest leaders of the 20th centuries when it comes to revolutionary.

Eric Harris
Yeah. Yeah.

Conrad
Yeah. I agree. Just echoing that, you know, I mean Assata is an icon, you know, may she rest in peace. As she rests with the ancestors who have all fought and, you know, raised awareness around not only disability but oppressive systems, you know, and looking at it through the lens in which systems are designed to produce the outcomes that they produce, which continue to keep people oppressed. And talking about that, you know, being a woman, especially at that time when women's voices were not allowed to be amplified or or listened to or or what have you. She was very vocal about these things. And, you know, being falsely accused of what she was accused of and, you know, being able to, you know, move and leave, flee the country and, you know, gain that asylum in Cuba. It just speaks to, you know, who she was.

And then on the conversely side. Rest in peace, D'Angelo, man. You know, I'm a big-time vocalist and karaoke singer, and I love D'Angelo. Is is he's in my bag. You know, so that man has healed many communities. Black music is healing. It's medicine. And D'Angelo's music, just had a unique ability to heal the heart you know, and soothe your mind, you know, especially with all of the things going on in the world. You know, you throw on some D'Angelo and it just, you know, gets a little lighter and things feel a little better. So rest in peace for the both of them.

Eric Harris
Absolutely. Absolutely. First, we always try to ask if there's a piece of art, music, a TV show, a movie that you're just really excited about that

you want people to check out. And I'll get us started by just encouraging people to listen to D'Angelo.

Conrad
Yeah.

Eric Harris
I think his music is timeless. And really, especially, just R&B from that era, and, you know, music that shows how much you care. And just, I encourage folks to, to listen to and show as much love to D'Angelo as possible during this time. And, but I hand it off to you guys. Is there any piece of art, music, movie book?

Conrad
I would say I would say, first of all, 90s R&B. It's nothing like it.

Eric Harris
Nothing like it.

Conrad
Nothing like it. If you haven't just, you know, "Alexa, play some 90s R&B" and just sit down and relax. You know, it's just timeless. I would say for me, I mean, there's so much rich history, especially in the black community when it comes to art. Oh my goodness. But for me, something

that really impacted me as a high school student was, a book that was given to me by a substitute teacher. And that book was, The Autobiography of Malcolm X. And it was written by Alex Haley. It was a book that just mind blown. I was completely blown away how Malcolm talked about his reality, his history, systemic oppression, racism. Just the ways in which Black folks, you know, navigate. I mean, it just it that was something that transformed my thinking. And I always recommend that to younger folks like, hey, I know, you know, reading is like, oh, I got to read, you know, but I promise you, you start opening it and you start reading it, you won't be able to put it down.

Eric Harris
Right, right.

Conrad
So that's something that really stuck with me.

Eric Harris
And it's like, you could peep the audiobook too, man.

Conrad
That's. True too. You know, you can go, you know, put your earbuds in if you, you know, want to listen to the audiobook, it's all there for you, so.

Eric Harris
That's right. That's right.

Conrad
Yeah.

Eric Harris
What about you?

Tremmel
I want to encourage people to look into the PBS, story about Brad Lomax, the autobiography about Brad Lomax. I uplifted him at the beginning of the podcast. I would encourage people to read more into his story. He was an amazing Black activist. And disability rights.

Eric Harris
Fantastic. Fantastic. Well, the the final question, I know we're at the very end is always what is your guys' gameplay. You know, the show is called The Game Plan. And we try to come up with some solutions. We don't want to just kind of lay out what some of the issues are out there, but we want to lay out a solution or a couple of solutions. So in a couple of sentences, what would your guys' game plan be? For the community,

for the black community, for the disability community, for our movement. You know, what would you say is your game plan for these next six months to a year?

Tremmel
So I'm working with an organization that's called Activating Change, it's it's a national organization. I work as an independent consultant for this organization, and I sit on a founding advisory board for directly-impacted. So we are working to address the disabled and deaf hen they impact them on policing, supervision, incarceration. So that is one of the game plans that I'm working with right now.

Eric Harris
Fantastic.

Conrad
For me. I would say, connect yourself to something

that's greater than you. Lose yourself in something that's a cause. It could be art, it could be religion, it can be policy. It can be whatever. But something that's bigger than you. Get involved in that thing. Lose yourself. And when a person loses themself in that thing, they'll be able to find themselves. And when you find yourself, you'll find your community. You'll find a lot of different things that your eyes might not have been seeing. Different blind spots will become clear to you. And I would just say that for individuals to do that, Go on that journey, get involved, use your voice, try to find something. Whatever it is, it could be local, it could be national, or whatever that thing is, and just try to make sure you're using your voice to then you'll be outwardly helping others and changing communities.

Eric Harris
Well Conrad Crump, Tremmel Watson. It's been wonderful to have you both on The Game Plan. And thank you so much for being our guests today.

Conrad
Thank you, thank you for having us.

[Triumphant music playing]

Voiceover
This has been The Game Plan, a production of Disability Rights California. Please like, subscribe and comment on the platform of your choice. See you next time.